Sebastian Mullaert and Henrik Frendin talk about their Collaboration - from 15questions.net

Names: Henrik Frendin, Sebastian Mullaert
Nationality: Swedish
Occupations: Violist, composer, professor (Henrik), producer, composer, improviser (Sebastian)
Current release: Henrik Frendin and Sebastian Mullaert team up for Hind, out May 24th 2024 via Lamour.
Recommendations: 
Henrik: Wow, a bit difficult to choose ... Jack Pransky 's book Somebody should have told us about the three priniciples – Mind, Thought and Consciousness is a thoughtful one. 
I will also choose a great piece of music for viola: “Wom Winde beveint” by the Georgian composer Giya Kancheli 

Sebastian: Hilma of Klint ”the ten largest” (painting); Anouar Brahem ”Conte de L’Incroyable Amour” (song) 

If you enjoyed this interview with Sebastian Mullaert and Henrik Frendin and would like to stay up to date with their music, visit Henrik Frendin's page on the website of the Malmö Academy of Music, and Sebastian Mullaert's official homepage. 

For the thoughts of two other Sebastian Mullaert collaborators, read our Johanna Knutsson interview, and our Mathew Jonson interview.

What were some of your earliest collaborations? How do you look back on them with hindsight?

Henrik: Speaking about myself, I set an early inner goal about my musicianship in my 20's when my professional career took off. This was simply to explore every aspect of viola playing no matter what genre. 

My debut recital after seven years at the Royal Conservatory of Copenhagen was the actual starting point. Having played in various jazz groups as a teenager before I went classical, turned me back to develop my personal approach of improvisation later in the '90s. 

At the same time I joined the leading Swedish contemporary music ensemble. A fruitful challenge that expanded my sound palette and playing technique. I discovered the beauty of extremely complex scores by great composers like Ligeti, where the form could also be used as a framework for improvisation. Going electro-acoustical with this ideas was a mind blower. 

I guess this started the process of developing my music vocabulary which I still work on. Doing this together with other musicians is the ultimate creative environment when you can share ideas, especially if you are exploring new sonic domaines. I like this situation so well explained in the famous quote by Stanley Kubrick: - I don’t know what I want, but I know what I don’t want. 

Sebastian: I have worked with so many people over the years, but the earliest collaborations that actually led to more substantial expression were with a string quartet I played Viola in called Ansema, and a pop band I formed (DIM) with some friends in my late teens. 

In both of these projects, I played Viola. In the first one, we performed clear classical ensemble music, while in the latter, I brought in a lot of stompboxes, leading into the electronic universe of music creation.

I think what has always accompanied me in my work with music is my dedication and work ethic, combined with a deep wish to invite people to co-create. These two factors have always been so important and are still very important to me.

There are many potential models for collaboration, from live performances and jamming/producing in the same room together up to file sharing. Which of these do you prefer – and why? 

Sebastian: First, I would like to share something. I feel that creativity is the constant allowing of life; it is a journey of change filled with sensorial experiences. To allow this creativity is an adventure and exploration, and it’s about sensing when we are allowing the opening or triggering the narrowing. 

For me, this journey has also included an exploration of my introvert and extrovert aspects. I love collaborations, but at the same time, I love and need my individual time in my creative process. For me, it’s been very important to find balance in this to allow my creativity.

After deepening and allowing my own individual process in the studio, I've spent the last 8 years exploring different forms of collaborations, and I feel very curious about how to invite myself and others to a space of creativity and potential. This has led me to a wide range of collaborations in the studio, on stage, within education, with other electronic artists, with different ensembles, with different art forms, and of course, with different solo vocalists and instrumentalists like with Henrik on the HINDalbum.

For me, it’s been clear that the actual form of the collaboration matters little and the attitude, acceptance, and honoring of creativity between the creators are essential.

Henrik: It depends on the context, and the purpose of the collaboration. Flexibility and understanding of the people I work with is the keyword. Making general agreements when starting a new collaboration could be of great help later on in the process. This is something I also teach in my chamber music classes at the Music Academy. 

During the time working on HIND with Sebastian it turned out that we share so many values about music making. This made it so easy to go deeper at an early stage of the collaboration. 

How did this particular collaboration come about?

Henrik: It all started with a phone call from Sebastian almost 20 years ago. 

He was already an established performing artist in his genre and wanted to get back to the roots, i e taking up his viola playing and taking lesson again. At that time he didn't know that I also had a great interest in the electro-acoustical field although from another angle. Namely exploring it from commissioning pieces by composers of contemporary western music.
This was the planting of a seed. 

Fifteen years later I suddenly came across Sebastian's music on Youtube. Shortly after I woke up one morning and got a clear vision in my mind that our different worlds of sound could create an exciting musical synergy that just had to be explored. Filled with enthusiasm, I picked up the phone and called him right away. The first words he said to me after not being in touch for so many years were: - I thought about you yesterday …

Whether this was a coincidence or not, guided by synchronicity, we started to draw up the framework for creating the album HIND.  

What did you know about each other before working together? Describe your creative partner in a few words, please.

Henrik: When I got to know Sebastian through his viola lessons, he was touring around the globe with his duo “Minilogue”. Difficult to find time to meet because he was away almost all the time. I could see immideately that his devotion for music and curiosity brought him success. 

When we later started to work together creating the album HIND, we also found out quite early in the process that we have a lot of human and musical values in common. For instance the interest and practice of meditation. This has certainly made the collaboration even more inspiring.

Sebastian: I had rather limited knowledge of Henrik before the Hind journey began, but I knew enough to become curious when Henrik called me and asked if we should record some music together. 

I think what piqued my curiosity were Henrik's interests in improvisation, meditation, and nature, which are key elements of my own creative process, and obviously, his amazing skill as a viola player :)

Tell me a bit about your current instruments and tools, please. In which way do they support creative exchange and collaborations with others?

Henrik: My two custom made electric violas are just an extraordinary set of tools. It has been a 15 year long journey of trial and error since I first asked the innovative instrument maker Richard Rolf to construct an electric amplified viola that has the same sound qualities as an ordinary one and can be electronically moderated. 

The first 5-string one was first used in public in a premiere of a solo concerto in Wiener Konzerthaus in 2002. The second one was my instrument in another EBU-broadcasted concerto premiere with the Swedish Radio Orchestra in 2011. This really shows the potential of these instruments and why their unique sound palette is so exciting when writing music for solo viola and orchestra. 

When making music together with Sebastian's sound scapes the sky has no limit. The refined use of multi looping from his side just wipes out the borders between man, instrument and machine. The multidimensional experience becomes one.

Sebastian: My main tool is the actual process in the studio, which I will describe next. In this process, I utilize my studio, both hardware and software, to create sounds in a very meditative way. My way of working is very hands-on, and my most used instruments are faders on mixers and controllers—a rather simple and dubby approach. 

For recording the actual song, I use my live setup where I arrange and play the sketches and loop/mix the sounds from Henrik.

Before you started making music together, did you in any form exchange concrete ideas, goals, or strategies? Generally speaking, what are your preferences when it comes to planning vs spontaneity in a collaboration?

Henrik: We didn't start to play right away. Our first musical meeting started with a several hours long walk in the breathtaking nature of Söderåsens National Park near Sebastian's studio ending with a meditation in the woods. Something that we both practiced for years. This was the initial way to get into the mood of spontaneous music making. Experiencing the ecology of nature immediately transformed into the ecology of sounds. 

A source of inspiration was also using different geometrical forms emerged from nature, into the shaping of musical phrases and motives.

Describe the process of working together, please. What was different from your expectations and what did the other add to the music?

Sebastian: My main tool is the actual process in the studio, a 4-step process that has emerged after many years of allowing (and holding back) my creativity. In this process, I have different steps that help me stay present and sensorial, avoiding thinking, planning, or judging. 

For this album, we allowed the same process, and one of the beauties of it is that it helps everyone in the collaboration to allow themselves and play out their voice of the very moment.

The first step is like a "pre-step": connecting with presence and feeling the flow of life/energy. Remembering the simplicity and beauty of being, and in that trust, feeling and allowing the creation of the world. This pre-step is repeated every day and often many times a day.

The next step is to play, record, loop, blend … basically, record and play without any filters, a step filled with playfulness, acceptance, curiosity, and a radical trust to spark and attraction. When I work with other artists, this step is divided into two parts. In the first part, I try to create a warm and allowing space and let the other artist just play out within a certain scale and tempo. In the second part, I massage these recordings into mantric long loops and soundscapes. 

Often the sounds blend and go in and out through gear and instruments many times, and most of the time I have my fingers on the faders to add my feelings.

The next step is to pick 12 sounds from all the sounds made in the previous step and drop them on my 12 performative channels on my mixer.

The last step is to actually record the final song. I play the sketch and take care of the live looping, and the instrumentalists improvise together with the sketch. You can hear and watch this happening on the spot in the title track of the album ("Hind"). Normally, I make a lot of different takes in this step, but this song actually happened in the first take.


In this process, I don’t expect anything from my collaborator nor myself; it’s all about allowing whatever comes to life and celebrating it. The entire album was made in the way I described above - it’s actually the only way I make music these days. 

Is there a piece which shows the different aspects you each contributed to the process particularly clearly?

Henrik: Sebastian describes the process so well in detail. There is not so much to add from my side, but maybe the odd piece “Off course” could be mentioned since it stands out a bit. 

It developed to be a synthesis of atonal western music phrases and playing techniques on the viola, married to a kind of corny groove emerged from Sebastian's sensitive hands, guided by his music mind a the very moment on the fly. There is a connection between these two elements that was so fun to play with. 

Throwing the bow on the string creating a bouncing effect sets off the tune and awakens the curiosity about in what direction the music will develop. If you end up hearing a bossa nova beat, that’s your experience…

What tend to be the best collaborations in your opinion – those with artists you have a lot in common with or those where you have more differences? What happens when another musician take you outside of your comfort zone?

Henrik: I have, through a long career, played with a lot of excellent musicians within different genres. The most inspiring setting for a collaboration is from my point of view, with musicians that you like and respect both as musicians and human beings. If you experience that “personal chemistry” when playing music, this phenomenon can be one way to take you into the zone. 

If you start to evaluate if it is comfortable or not you are not in the music but in your thoughts. If you are thinking, you are not playing - If you are playing you are not thinking. 

If you want to go deeper you just have to let go of all your efforts and just play.

Decisions between creatives often work without words. How did this process work in this case?

Sebastian: I believe the universe and everything it holds, including nature and humans, communicate and connect in many dimensions and ways. To live life is to collaborate; it is to open up to the life we meet and to share the life we allow through our humanness. 

Playing together with someone means to hold the other person’s expression in your awareness and allow the sensation of this expression to be experienced in this awareness. When doing this together, you open up to a deep and open dialogue and connection. 

Allowing your creativity beyond thoughts and judgment is naturally allowing this connection, and this is why allowing your creativity is so healing and such an important and essential part of being human. In this space, we transcend separation and unite, something the human realm is always in great need of.

Sometimes, the universe gives us small gifts of confirmation that this magic is real, and Henrik and I experienced something very remarkable one of the first days Henrik visited the forest where I live. 

We had a long walk in the forest, shared our intentions with this project, and talked about the values of improvisation and creativity. Just before finding a spot to meditate, we talked about how creativity is like allowing the divine and childlike playfulness, and that the forest is like the great mother calling for this child within us. 

We sat down in a green lush glade in the middle of the forest, and after around 30-40 minutes of meditation, we heard some footsteps in the leaves behind us followed by a very loud bark. 

It was like an instant call, cutting through the very moment and making us 100% awake. The steps ran away, and for half a minute, we were just sitting in this very sharp and clear awareness. As I always have my eyes slightly open when I meditate, I saw something running towards us through the trees. 

When coming closer, I could see that it was a baby deer, and apparently, she didn’t notice us and ran straight towards us. Just two meters in front of us, Henrik made a move, and she saw us and jumped over my shoulder. 

The mother Hind called for her child, like nature called for the child within us. This is the reason for the name of the album.

What are your thoughts on the need for compromise vs standing by one's convictions? How did you resolve potential disagreements in this collaboration?

Sebastian: For me, creativity is about allowing and letting expression take place, not trying to construct or plan something. I don’t think creativity is about analyzing and judging, but about allowing a space where life can bloom in any form and way. 

With this approach, collaboration is not about defending something or standing by convictions or dogmas, but about allowing and welcoming. When we neglect creativity, the defending or competitive patterns in us often take more place, and separation and division come into play. When allowing creativity, these patterns slowly lose their grip, and life can flow freely again.

My process has appeared with this in mind; each step helps me and the one I’m working with to let go of separating patterns and welcome creativity. In the process, there are of course moments of decision-making, but when these are embedded in playfulness and mantric music-making, I feel that they are made with a connection to feelings and experience and not only based on conceptual ideas and plans.

I also feel it’s very interesting to see how defensive and territorial patterns completely lose their grip when using this approach in collaboration. In the end, when we decided on what songs to include in the album, there was no disagreement or difficulty in making decisions even if we initially had some different ideas.

To touch life through a creative process is the most profound way to avoid any form of war and destructive conflicts, both within ourselves and in our relationship with the world. 

Henrik: No need to add something here. I am totally in the same universe as Sebastian when we speak about, or try to answer these essential  questions about life.

Was/Is this collaboration fun – does it need to be?

Henrik: Our method makes it possible for the flow to happen in music. In one way, if it wasn't fun I don’t think it would have happened. 

But what is actually fun? Is it a feeling trigged by our senses? Or is fun in music almost the same as satisfaction? Is it really the meaning of music? Going deeper could be fun as taking musical risks, being surprised, inviting other people to your musical world etc. 

When this question comes up and you try to answer it, it easily lead over to the much bigger question: - What is music? There has been different explanations of this through history. John Cage claimed that music is ”Organized sounds” which is a less emotional one. I like better this more abstract one by the Finish composer Leif Segerstam: - Why it sounds as it sounds, when it sounds. 

Maybe music is a phenomenon we don’t need to understand or explain. We can just experience it.

Do you find that thanks to this collaboration, you changed certain parts of your process or your outlook on certain creative aspects?

Henrik: Expanding you own musical horizon is an endless process. You can always learn something new from people you work with if you are open minded. Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.